"basically in China we have no 19th century to some extent at all because basically the idea of the century was only emerged in the beginning of 20th century" - Wang Hui [00:13:26]
"it convey a very strong sense of the synchronicity global synchronicity it's almost not possible define China only with its own past the all others became our past" - Wang Hui [00:14:42]
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"to come into the 20th century with the baggage of a consolidated 19th century European conception of history is in some sense a handicap... China disenumbered of the burden of a 19th century... becomes a space for a kind of radicalism in thinking about history" - Adam Tooze [00:20:06]
"the violence itself should be politicized to understand" - Wang Hui [00:31:18]
"the true revolutionary always recognized the failure which mean that made you fight further... the people's war was contained a logic both failure and the victory" - Wang Hui [00:46:28]
Speakers & Credentials
Adam Tooze: Economic Historian, Professor at Columbia University, and author of Deluge (translated into Chinese by Imaginist). He specializes in global macro-history, early 20th-century crises, and the political economy of the Anthropocene.
Wang Hui: Professor at Tsinghua University's Institute for Advanced Studies. A foremost scholar of modern Chinese intellectual history, literature, and the philosophical legacy of Lu Xun, known for his critical analyses of neoliberalism and Chinese modernity.
1. Executive Summary
This discourse unpacks the divergent historiographies of the 19th and 20th centuries, contrasting the European continuum with China's abrupt integration into a synchronized global history.
The speakers analyze the era of neoliberal globalization as a paradoxical "return to the 19th century," characterized by renewed imperialism and developmentalism, while emphasizing that the planetary constraints of the Anthropocene render this repetition structurally impossible.
Through a rigorous critique of Carl Schmitt's theories of depoliticization and his rigid friend/foe binary, the dialogue highlights how Maoist dialectics and the framework of the "People's War" offer a more dynamic, transformative understanding of sovereignty and class relations.
The conversation juxtaposes European philosophical disintegration post-Holocaust with the Chinese politicization of violence, where protracted warfare inherently drives deep structural societal reorganization.
Ultimately, the dialogue leverages the legacy of Lu Xun to advocate for a philosophy of "permanent revolution"—a mental model where acknowledging systemic failure becomes the absolute precondition for continuous, politically mobilized resistance.
2. Chronological Table of Contents
[00:00:04] Introductions, Biography, and the Shock of 1989
[00:05:43] The Return of the 19th Century vs. The Short 20th Century
[00:10:21] Hyper-Industrialism and Anthropocene Constraints
[00:13:33] The Linguistic and Conceptual Invention of China's 20th Century
[00:18:36] The Re-enactment of Imperialism and the Handicap of European History
[00:22:52] Comparing the Holocaust, Historical Singularities, and Marxism
[00:29:18] The Deep Social Mobilization of the People's War
[00:31:28] COVID-19: People's War versus Total War
[00:34:44] Carl Schmitt, Depoliticization, and the Fugu Fish Metaphor
[00:44:54] Lu Xun, Satire, and the Logic of Permanent Revolution
3. Detailed Thematic Summary
Biographical Origins and the Eurocentric Rupture [00:00:04]
The 1989 Catalyst: Adam Tooze situates his historical lens in his graduation during the summer of 1989 in West Berlin [00:01:45]. He characterizes this era as a "re-provincialization," where Europeans were consumed by their localized version of the Cold War's end, blinding them to broader global dynamics [00:02:09].
Corporate Disruption of Eurocentrism: Tooze admits it took until the 2000s for his macro-historical focus to pivot to China [00:03:09]. This shift was forced by close structural interactions with global corporate capitalism, specifically through consulting work with the British oil major, British Petroleum (BP), which definitively shattered his purely Eurocentric worldview [00:03:16].
The Foundational Crisis: When conceptualizing his book Deluge, Tooze focused on the macro-crisis surrounding the Treaty of Versailles—which historically parallels China's May 4th Movement—recognizing this epoch as the "broken-back century" and the definitive rupture of modern history [00:04:15].
Defining the 20th Century and Anthropocene Realities [00:10:21]
Hyper-Industrial Categorization: Framing economic development through an environmental and resource lens, Tooze argues that the history of coal consists of three distinct eras: the pre-industrial, the classic industrial, and the post-2000 Chinese hyper-industrial explosion [00:10:29]. He asserts this scale is radically beyond anything Karl Marx could have theorized [00:10:36].
The Concept of "Global Synchronicity": Wang Hui explains that China functionally lacked a "19th century." The actual vocabulary to measure time in "centuries" only arrived in 1899, when Liang Qichao, exiled in Honolulu, utilized the terms "20th Century" and "Pacific" to orient China globally [00:13:33]. This specific phrasing forcibly integrated China into global synchronicity, rendering the rest of the world's past into China's historical baseline [00:14:42].
The Illusion of the 19th Century Return: Wang Hui dissects the 1990s neoliberal tide in China as a brief, developmentalist echo of 19th-century capitalism [00:15:16]. He notes that severe localized pollution in Beijing in the late 1990s and early 2000s immediately signaled the planetary constraints (the Anthropocene) that negate the viability of permanent growth [00:15:30].
The Danger of American Re-enactment: Tooze observes that contemporary US policy (e.g., Trump administration paradigms) attempts to safely reenact 19th-century dynamics—Monroe Doctrine enforcement, re-industrialization, and gunboat diplomacy [00:18:55]. He warns this is structurally disastrous because modern geopolitical actors (like Iran) are not the pliable empires of 1907 [00:19:06].
Paradigms of Violence: The Holocaust vs. People's War [00:22:52]
The European Handicap: Tooze argues that European thinkers (like Adorno and Benjamin) entered the 20th century armed with consolidated 19th-century philosophies of history, which catastrophically disintegrated by 1939-1940 [00:19:58]. Disencumbered from this specific legacy, China emerged as a pristine space for radically reconceiving revolutionary action [00:20:28].
Historiographical Blindspots: Wang Hui points out the Eurocentric monopolization of trauma. While the Holocaust operates as a singular paradigm-busting event in European theory, equally catastrophic events in Asia, such as the Nanjing Massacre, have routinely been bypassed by global historians using Frankfurt School frameworks [00:24:02]. This results in scholars like Eric Hobsbawm dedicating merely "two pages" to 20th-century China [00:26:08].
The Politicization of Violence: Tooze notes that in Hobsbawm's Age of Extremes, violence becomes an indeterminate, destructive force stripped of Marxist class logic [00:27:02]. In contrast, the Maoist concept of the People's War ensures violence remains inextricably tied to class, inequality, and the literal reorganization of the state, ensuring that even in its horror, it remains "constitutive of politics" [00:28:11].
Social Reorganization: Wars in 20th-century China (from the 1911 revolution to the Civil War) fundamentally differed from 19th-century imperial clashes (like the Opium War) because they demanded multi-layered social reorganization encompassing peasants, women, and state-building via Soviet frameworks [00:30:15].
The Rhetoric of the Pandemic: The categorical rhetoric of the "People's War" was officially resurrected during the May 2020 "Two Sessions" to declare victory against COVID-19 [00:31:36].
Categorical Confusion: Wang Hui observes a strategic fusion of three layers during the outbreak: medical prevention, a bottom-up "People's War" (relying on extreme social mobilization and bare hands before vaccines), and a top-down "Total War" (rapid state mobilization to build hospitals in Wuhan) [00:32:46].
Totalitarian Creep: Over time, the bottom-up logic of the People's War was eclipsed by the technocratic, governmentally dominant mechanics of Total War [00:33:15]. Historically, the People's War was formulated precisely to overcome fascist Total War (as theorized by Ludendorff), but these boundaries have dangerously blurred in the modern era [00:34:03].
Carl Schmitt, Sovereignty, and the Fugu Fish Metaphor [00:34:44]
The Toxic Intellect: Tooze introduces the German jurist Carl Schmitt—a committed Nazi—whose critique of neoliberal depoliticization is heavily utilized by contemporary left-wing thinkers [00:35:26]. Wang Hui compares reading Schmitt to eating "Fugu fish" (pufferfish): highly fresh and insightful, yet highly toxic and requiring careful extraction [00:37:06].
The 1929 Thesis: Schmitt's 1929 thesis analyzed the prior 400 years of European history, viewing the rising US system as an engine of depoliticization driven by economic proceduralism [00:37:55].
Friend/Foe Binary vs. Maoist Dialectics: Wang Hui isolates the fundamental flaw in Schmitt's logic: his reliance on absolute sovereignty locks the "Enemy/Friend" dichotomy into a static, rigid binary [00:39:21]. Conversely, Maoist dialectics view the enemy/friend relationship as fluid and transformative, allowing for vast socio-political reorganizations like the "United Front" [00:40:14].
The Fear of Subordination: Tooze contextualizes Schmitt's reactionary philosophy as stemming from the terror that the Weimar Republic lacked true sovereignty, rendering Germany effectively "Ottomanized" and subordinate to the moralistic, commercial hegemony of Anglo-American powers [00:43:18].
Lu Xun, Satire, and Permanent Revolution [00:44:54]
Acknowledging Failure: Wang Hui pivots to Lu Xun and Mao Zedong as foundational architects of Chinese historical consciousness. He links Lu Xun's ideology to a form of permanent revolution built directly upon the recognition of failure [00:46:28]. The refusal to accept any institution as permanently progressive prevents ideological stagnation.
Victory Through Failure: Mao's doctrine of moving "from victory to victory" is structurally contingent upon utilizing initial failures to optimize the overarching logic of the People's War [00:46:47].
The Ecosystem of Satire: Addressing Lu Xun's dark, "savage" humor, Wang Hui laments that the organic folk culture and institutional conditions that fueled Lu Xun's satire have been absorbed by highly specialized modern university systems (e.g., Tsinghua, Columbia) governed by grants [00:49:50].
The Darkest Light: When asked if social media provides a modern equivalent to Lu Xun's satire, Wang Hui asserts that intellectual subversion must act as "guerrilla fighters" finding new base areas [00:50:45]. He invokes Lu Xun's ethos: true enlightenment is found by navigating the darkest areas to uncover structural truths [00:51:10].
The Reference Vault
4. Data & Figures
Data Point
Value
Context
Timestamp
Adam Tooze Graduation
1989
Summer of graduation in West Berlin, marking the subjective end of the Cold War and a "re-provincialization" of European focus.
The timeframe Carl Schmitt sought to summarize in his thesis regarding the neutralization and depoliticization of European history.
[]
5. Core Frameworks & Mental Models
The "Return of the 19th Century" Framework: Theorized by Wang Hui to explain the neoliberal developments of the 1990s. It argues that modern globalization mirrors 19th-century capitalism and imperialistic re-shoring, though this return is actively constrained by the ecological limits of the Anthropocene. [00:16:22]
Global Synchronicity vs. Linear History: The concept that China did not experience a gradual transition from the 19th to 20th century. Instead, the sudden introduction of global temporal vocabulary forced an immediate "synchronicity," collapsing the entire rest of the world's past into China's historical baseline. [00:14:42]
People's War vs. Total War: An operational military and social framework. "Total War" (associated with fascist Germany/Japan) relies on top-down technocratic and state mobilization. "People's War" (Maoist) necessitates bottom-up mobilization, requiring the profound political and social reorganization of peasants, women, and civilian structures. [00:33:15]
Schmittian Depoliticization: Carl Schmitt's critique that liberal capitalism and Anglo-American hegemony systematically "neutralize" genuine political conflict (friend/foe sovereignty) in favor of procedural, economic management and universalist moralism. [00:37:55]
Transformative Dialectics (Maoism): In direct contrast to Schmitt's static "Friend/Foe" binary, Maoist thought approaches structural contradictions dynamically, asserting that the relationship between allies and enemies is fluid and highly transformative (e.g., The United Front). [00:40:14]
Lu Xun's Resistance Against Despair: A mental model for "permanent revolution" in which the intellectual continuously anticipates and acknowledges institutional failure. Recognizing this failure prevents ideological complacency and acts as the fuel for ongoing resistance. [00:46:28]
6. Anecdotes
The BP Wake-Up Call: Adam Tooze admits that his focus was entirely Eurocentric until the 2000s, when consulting for British Petroleum forced him to confront the sprawling realities of global corporate capitalism, actively breaking his academic provincialism. [00:03:16]
Liang Qichao in Honolulu: Wang Hui shares the story of intellectual Liang Qichao writing a poem in exile in 1899. This act was the first time in over 2,000 years that the Chinese state was defined externally using the specific concepts of the "20th Century" and the "Pacific," pulling the nation abruptly into global modernity. [00:13:33]
The Fugu Fish Metaphor: When discussing the toxic yet highly influential intellect of Nazi jurist Carl Schmitt, Wang Hui utilizes the Japanese Fugu (pufferfish) as a metaphor. The meat is brilliantly fresh and highly sought after by political theorists, but if extracted without extreme care, it is completely lethal. [00:37:06]
The "Two Sessions" and COVID: During the height of the pandemic response, rhetoric became deeply entangled. While the state rapidly constructed top-down "Total War" hospitals, it simultaneously relied on the barehanded, localized mobilization of a "People's War" before vaccines existed, blurring a vital 20th-century ideological boundary. [00:32:46]
7. References & Recommendations
Books & Publications
Deluge by Adam Tooze: Mentioned as Tooze's third book, translated into Chinese, which frames the Treaty of Versailles and the May 4th Movement as the foundational crisis of the 20th century. [00:04:05]
Age of Extremes by Eric Hobsbawm: Critiqued for treating the 20th century as an era of inexplicable, un-theorized violence, and severely omitting the history of modern China. [00:16:22]
Resistance Against Despair (Revolt Against Desperation) by Wang Hui: Wang's first book analyzing the philosophical parallels between Lu Xun and Mao Zedong regarding failure and victory. [00:47:11]
Historical Figures & Theorists
Lu Xun: The seminal Chinese satirist and essayist; utilized to explain how permanent revolution requires the explicit acknowledgment of failure, and whose savage humor relied on an organic folk culture lost to modern universities. [00:44:54]
Carl Schmitt: German jurist and Nazi party member; heavily referenced for his 1929 thesis on the depoliticization of the modern state and his rigid definition of sovereignty via the friend/foe binary. [00:34:44]
Mao Zedong: Referenced for his framework of the "People's War," dynamic dialectics regarding contradictions, and the ethos of moving "from victory to victory" through sustained failure. [00:46:47]
Eric Hobsbawm & E.P. Thompson: British Marxist historians critiqued for their deep investments in India and Europe while remaining practically oblivious to the historical mass of 20th-century China. [00:06:06]
Liang Qichao: Chinese intellectual who integrated China into global synchronicity via poetry written during his 1899 exile in Hawaii. [00:13:33]
Erich Ludendorff: German general cited as the prime architect of the "Total War" concept, which the Chinese "People's War" was specifically designed to defeat. [00:34:03]
Geopolitical Entities & Institutions
British Petroleum (BP): The multinational corporate entity whose operations catalyzed Adam Tooze's pivot away from a strictly Eurocentric historical perspective. [00:03:16]
Tsinghua University & Columbia University: Modern academic institutions critiqued as highly specialized, grant-driven environments that lack the radical folk-culture grounding necessary to produce a satirist like Lu Xun. [00:49:50]
Historical Events & Concepts
The May 4th Movement & Treaty of Versailles: Framed concurrently as the absolute rupture point of global modernity. [00:04:15]
The Anthropocene: The current geological epoch acting as a hard planetary constraint against the neoliberal desire to "return to the 19th century" of unlimited industrial growth. [00:11:37]
The Nanjing Massacre & The Holocaust: Juxtaposed to highlight the Eurocentric bias in global historiography; where the Holocaust shattered European philosophy, the Nanjing Massacre has rarely been afforded the same theoretical weight by Western academics. [00:24:02]
8. The Bottomline (by AI)
The West fundamentally misdiagnoses the trajectory of modern history by imposing static, 19th-century European frameworks onto a planetary system irrevocably altered by hyper-industrialism and Chinese "synchronicity." The current geopolitical volatility is not a safe, manageable regression to Monroe Doctrine-style imperialism, but a highly dangerous landscape constrained by the ecological limits of the Anthropocene. To navigate this, strategic thinkers must abandon the rigid Schmittian binaries of proceduralism and friend/foe depoliticization and instead study the dynamic, transformative mobilization of the "People's War." Ultimately, recognizing and weaponizing systemic failure—rather than pursuing permanent, static victory—is the foundational mechanism for building resilient macro-political strategies.
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