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On this page

Speakers & Credentials

  • Speakers & Credentials
  • 1. Executive Summary
  • 2. Chronological Table of Contents
  • 3. Detailed Thematic Summary
  • Early Career & the Shift to the Buy-Side [00:03:01]
  • The Panning Capital Era and Lessons Learned [00:12:31]
  • The Growth and Structural Vulnerabilities of Private Credit [00:21:03]
  • Redemption Cycles and the Retail Mindset [00:28:43]
  • The SaaS Trap and Impending Default Cycle [00:31:49]
  • Saba Capital's Strategy and Market Opportunities [00:37:43]
  • The Reference Vault
  • 4. Data & Figures
  • 5. Core Frameworks & Mental Models
  • 6. Anecdotes
  • 7. References & Recommendations

On this page

  • Speakers & Credentials
  • 1. Executive Summary
  • 2. Chronological Table of Contents
  • 3. Detailed Thematic Summary
  • Early Career & the Shift to the Buy-Side [00:03:01]
  • The Panning Capital Era and Lessons Learned [00:12:31]
  • The Growth and Structural Vulnerabilities of Private Credit [00:21:03]
  • Redemption Cycles and the Retail Mindset [00:28:43]
  • The SaaS Trap and Impending Default Cycle [00:31:49]
  • Saba Capital's Strategy and Market Opportunities [00:37:43]
  • The Reference Vault
  • 4. Data & Figures
  • 5. Core Frameworks & Mental Models
  • 6. Anecdotes
  • 7. References & Recommendations
Self-Development/March 30, 2026/13 min read/youtu.be

Kieran Goodwin – Private Credit Concerns (EP.494) | Capital Allocators with Ted Seides

Source
Source
Watch on YouTube ↗

"I truly believe that asset liability mismatches cause liquidity crunches and liquidity crunches can cause credit crunches..." - Kieran Goodwin [00:28:43]

"every day you have to assume you start with a zero next to your name you're probably going to have some hurdle adversity to overcome..." - Kieran Goodwin [00:14:10]

References

  1. Original source (youtu.be)

Disclaimer: Orignal content owned by or sourced from third parties. It does not represent the views of 'Nuggets' platform or it's team. AI is used extensively across this platform including for summaries. Accuracy is not guaranteed, there can be mistakes. Any info or content on this platform is not a financial, legal, or investment advice. Do your own research. Refer for complete disclosures:- Terms of Use · Full Disclaimer

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Published
March 30, 2026
Read time
13 min read
Progress0%

"credit is about believing you have to believe creree is credit means to believe and when you lose belief it happens really quickly..." - Kieran Goodwin [00:28:02]

"if you're not saying you're all soft I'm doing a technology fund but I'm 50% software do all your investors realize that..." - Kieran Goodwin [00:32:43]

"everybody has a plan until you get punched in the face like Mike Tyson that's liquidity" - Kieran Goodwin [00:45:44]


Speakers & Credentials

  • Ted Seides: Host of Capital Allocators, an institutional investing podcast.
  • Kieran Goodwin: Partner at Saba Capital (a $6B hedge fund manager). Widely regarded as a top credit trader for the past three decades. His career spans prominent sell-side roles at Smith Barney, Citibank, and Merrill Lynch, followed by highly successful buy-side tenures at King Street Capital and his own firm, Panning Capital.

1. Executive Summary

  • Kieran Goodwin traces his three-decade career arc, transitioning from the nascent days of sell-side credit derivatives to running massive portfolios at King Street and founding Panning Capital.
  • His central thesis focuses on the extreme, hidden structural risks accumulating within the booming private credit space, particularly within non-traded BDCs and interval funds.
  • He warns of a dangerous asset-liability mismatch: packaging highly illiquid private loans into vehicles that promise retail investors 5% quarterly liquidity.
  • Because retail investors view these vehicles strictly as yield products, the recent wave of dividend cuts has sparked a mechanical redemption cycle, threatening to force a brutal liquidity crunch.
  • Goodwin projects that as SaaS default rates rise and banks inevitably cut credit lines, forced selling will occur, providing generational distress opportunities for opportunistic funds like Saba Capital to scoop up premium loans at significant discounts.

2. Chronological Table of Contents

  • [00:03:01] Early Career & the Sell-Side Experience
  • [00:06:00] Transitioning to the Buy-Side at King Street
  • [00:11:09] The Journey of Founding and Closing Panning Capital
  • [00:17:25] Re-engagement with Boaz Weinstein and Joining Saba Capital
  • [00:21:03] The Evolution and Structural Risks of Private Credit
  • [00:28:43] Reflexivity, Retail Mindset, and the Redemption Cycle
  • [00:33:36] Signposts of a Default Cycle and SaaS Vulnerabilities
  • [00:37:43] Opportunistic Investing and the Saba Strategy

3. Detailed Thematic Summary

Early Career & the Shift to the Buy-Side [00:03:01]

  • Goodwin’s finance journey started as a computer science major at Duke, completely pivoting after reading Michael Lewis's Liar's Poker in a single night [00:03:13].
  • He began in interest rate derivatives at Smith Barney before moving to Citibank in 1995 to trade credit derivatives, a sector so new he admittedly didn't fully understand it at the time [00:04:10].
  • Transitioning to the buy-side at King Street required a paradigm shift in strategy: on the buy-side, you instantly start trades at a loss by paying the bid-offer spread, forcing a much higher level of intention and conviction than reactive sell-side market making [00:06:07].
  • The fundamental synergy between Goodwin's derivatives expertise and King Street's distressed value approach resulted in massive growth; during his six years, King Street's AUM grew from $4 billion to $22 billion [00:11:14].
  • During that identical 6-year window, the S&P 500 remained flat, while King Street returned over 100% [00:11:18].

The Panning Capital Era and Lessons Learned [00:12:31]

  • Goodwin launched his own fund, Panning Capital, out of the gate with $600 million in day-one capital [00:13:27].
  • The fund raised capital too quickly, bloating to $2.5 billion within 18 months, compounding structural management challenges [00:13:27].
  • Panning Capital experienced immediate success in 2013, returning 20% net, which Goodwin retrospectively calls a dangerous psychological trap that made the business feel "easy" [00:14:03].
  • The subsequent years were painful and volatile: up 1% in 2014, down 5% in 2015, and up 5% or 6% in 2016, ultimately leading Goodwin to close the fund out of exhaustion [00:14:24].
  • Goodwin cites "mission drift" as a critical failure point, referencing a specific trade in Fannie Mae / Freddie Mac preferreds where the position's delta shifted aggressively from 5-10 up to 40, turning a cheap option play into a pure binary legal speculation well outside his fundamental wheelhouse [00:15:04].

The Growth and Structural Vulnerabilities of Private Credit [00:21:03]

  • The private credit space originally utilized institutional drawdown funds to perfectly match the duration of illiquid assets with long-duration capital.
  • However, to access retail capital, the industry shifted to non-traded BDCs, which exploded from $0 to $350 billion from 2018 to the present [00:22:36], alongside an additional $100 billion parked in interval funds [00:38:18].
  • These retail-facing interval structures are legally mandated to offer 5% liquidity every quarter, creating a systemic asset-liability mismatch when the underlying loans are inherently illiquid [00:24:11].
  • Marking practices across these funds are wildly inconsistent; Goodwin notes instances where a stressed secondary SaaS loan is marked by some funds at 60, while an outlier BDC marks the identical club deal at 85 [00:26:52].
  • This discrepancy in marking accuracy can compound to create an overall Net Asset Value (NAV) illusion or variance of 4% to 6% between the top-tier managers and bottom-tier managers [00:27:52].

Redemption Cycles and the Retail Mindset [00:28:43]

  • The private wealth channel views private credit not as an asset class, but strictly as an income product, bearing historical similarity to the retail infatuation with MLPs prior to the 2015-2016 energy default cycle [00:29:12].
  • In Q4, macro pressure caused SOFR to drop 175 basis points, combined with new issue spreads tightening by 300 basis points compared to 2022-2023 levels [00:29:42].
  • This spread compression forced major managers like Blackstone, Golub, and Oaktree to rationally cut their dividends by 10% [00:29:42].
  • Because retail financial advisors operate on strict "dividend-cut heuristics," this action immediately spiked redemption requests across the top six BDCs from 2.1% to 4.3% [00:30:05].
  • To survive the cascading redemption wave, managers must execute elite underwriting, hold robust liquidity sleeves, and provide radical transparency regarding underlying portfolio marks [00:30:53].

The SaaS Trap and Impending Default Cycle [00:31:49]

  • Software as a Service (SaaS) became the crown jewel of alternative asset deployment, leading some private credit funds to quietly build massive 50% software concentrations within their books [00:32:43].
  • The space popularized Annual Recurring Revenue (ARR) loans—where lenders underwrite companies with negative EBITDA without taking equity warrants—which Goodwin views as structurally poor risk-reward investments that will suffer severely in a default wave [00:35:19].
  • If a severe liquidity crunch materializes, bank lenders will pull leverage facilities from bottom-quartile managers who might hit default rates of 15% to 20% (compared to the 7% to 8% of better funds) [00:41:59].
  • This feedback loop will trigger forced selling; Goodwin projects the clearing level for high-quality private credit in distress will be in the low 90s, which, given a 5-year duration and an 8-9% base rate, would yield roughly 11% [00:41:16].

Saba Capital's Strategy and Market Opportunities [00:37:43]

  • Goodwin architected an electronic trading arm for Saba Capital called "Saba LT" (Low Touch), recruiting a 13-person team from quantitative powerhouses to systematically trade corporate bonds [00:19:56].
  • Recognizing the mounting structural stress, Saba initiated a tender offer for Blue Owl’s OBDC2 fund to test the market's appetite for liquidity at a steep discount to NAV [00:37:56].
  • To parse through opaque fund marketing, Saba utilizes AI tools like Claude and ChatGPT, inputting every single underlying loan individually to identify the true sector concentrations of a BDC rather than relying on the manager's self-reported diversification [00:40:08].

The Reference Vault

4. Data & Figures

Data PointValueContextTimestamp
Saba Capital AUM$6 billionSize of Boaz Weinstein's hedge fund manager where Kieran is a partner.[00:00:57]
King Street AUM Growth$4B to $22BAsset growth during Kieran's 6-year tenure at King Street.[00:11:14]
King Street Performance>100%Return generated over 6 years while the S&P 500 was flat.[00:11:18]
Panning Capital Launch Size$600 millionInitial capital raised for Panning Capital.[00:13:27]
Panning Capital Peak AUM

5. Core Frameworks & Mental Models

  • Asset-Liability Mismatch & The Liquidity Feedback Loop: This fundamental risk framework dictates that the duration of an investment vehicle's assets must match the duration of its liabilities (investor capital). Private credit currently violates this rule by packaging illiquid, 5-to-7-year corporate loans into retail-facing interval funds and BDCs that offer 5% quarterly liquidity. Goodwin asserts that this precise mismatch guarantees a liquidity crunch during redemptions, which systematically forces asset fire sales and spirals into a true credit crunch. [00:28:43]
  • Retail "Tide" Heuristics (Income Sensitivity): A behavioral framework for understanding the private wealth channel. Retail investors fundamentally do not view private credit as a capital appreciation asset; they view it strictly as a mechanical income generator. Similar to their treatment of Master Limited Partnerships (MLPs) a decade ago, their loyalty is binary. If the promised yield/dividend is cut, the "tide goes out" and they instantly initiate redemptions, regardless of the underlying credit quality of the loans. [00:29:12]
  • The "Believe" Credit Mechanism (Reflexivity): Rooted in the etymology of the word credit (from the Latin credere, "to believe"), this model posits that credit markets are sustained primarily by collective psychological belief rather than pure structural fundamentals. The moment investors lose belief—whether due to opaque marking practices, suspected hidden leverage, or sudden dividend cuts—trust evaporates instantly. This psychological break causes rapid downward reflexivity, where the mere perception of risk aggressively destroys actual market liquidity and asset values. [00:28:02]
  • Misallocation of Capital / Cleansing Credit Cycles: A macroeconomic model stating that healthy capitalistic systems require periodic default cycles to flush out wildly misallocated capital. Goodwin draws a direct parallel between the early 2000s telecom fiber boom and today's venture-style lending into SaaS companies (specifically through ARR loans that lend against negative EBITDA without equity upside). Overfunding structurally flawed capital structures inevitably destroys returns, making a default cycle not just likely, but necessary to reset the market. [00:33:45]
  • Protect Your Downside (Defense Wins Championships): A mental model borrowed from sports coaching applied directly to investing risk. Just as a strong defense is the prerequisite for winning championships, focusing obsessively on downside protection is the prerequisite for survival and compounding returns in volatile credit markets. [00:47:02]

6. Anecdotes

  • The "Day One LPs" at Panning Capital Launch: To illustrate the value of relationships and a strong track record, Goodwin shared that the very day he left King Street, five different LPs proactively called him to thank him for his work. They told him to call them if he ever started a fund. Though he initially dismissed it, when he did launch Panning Capital, four out of his first ten investors were from that exact day-one group. [00:12:37]
  • The Fannie Mae / Freddie Mac Preferreds Drift: To illustrate the lethal danger of "mission drift" for investors, Goodwin recounted a trade from his tenure running Panning Capital. A persuasive salesperson pitched Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac preferred stocks as cheap options. Goodwin purchased them at $3, and they rapidly surged to $13. However, at that inflated price, the position's mathematical delta shifted massively from a 5-10 delta to a 40 delta. What began as a highly asymmetric, cheap option play had morphed into a dense, binary legal bet that sat far outside Goodwin’s core fundamental credit expertise, teaching him the hard lesson that you must abandon trades once the original thesis structure changes. [00:15:04]
  • Opening for Jim Gaffigan: Highlighting his struggle to "reinvent" himself after closing his hedge fund, Goodwin discussed a series of experimental failures, ranging from consulting for Mayor Bloomberg to farming. He eventually took a standup comedy class purely for entertainment. Because these classes mix in real, established comedians so the audience isn't subjected entirely to amateurs, Goodwin found himself performing due to a connection at his children's school, leading to a surreal night where he technically "opened" for famous comedian Jim Gaffigan. The very next day, COVID lockdowns began, abruptly ending his brief foray into comedy. [00:16:47]

7. References & Recommendations

  • Books & Literature
    • Liar's Poker by Michael Lewis - The book that originally inspired Kieran Goodwin to pursue a career on Wall Street.
    • Options, Futures, and Other Derivatives by John C. Hull - The foundational text Goodwin intensively studied to master option theory.
  • Companies & Financial Institutions
    • Saba Capital (Led by Boaz Weinstein)
    • King Street Capital
    • Panning Capital (Founded by Kieran Goodwin)
    • Citibank, Smith Barney, Merrill Lynch, Salomon Brothers
    • Andersen Consulting (Accenture)
    • Blackstone (BCRED), Golub, Oaktree, Apollo, Ares
    • Blue Owl (Specifically their OBDC2 vehicle)
    • Tradewell (An electronic trading platform acquired by Seaport)
    • Thema (An AI tool for private equity sourcing mentioned by host Ted Seides)
  • People
    • Michael Lewis (Author)
    • Boaz Weinstein (Founder, Saba Capital)
    • Fran Biondi and Brian Higgins (Founders, King Street Capital)
    • Frank Edmonds (Partner at Panning Capital)
    • Dave Sniderman (Head of Magnetar, formerly Citadel)
    • David Tepper (Distressed credit investor)
    • Alex Reichman (Founder of Tradewell)
    • Michael Bloomberg (Former NYC Mayor)
    • Jim Gaffigan (Comedian)
    • Tony Casamasa and Reggie Weiss (Goodwin's former basketball coaches)

Full Episode: The AI Industrial Revolution | 2 Jun 2026 | Naval and Nivi

Context: Host Naval Ravikant introduces a roundtable discussion on the "AI Industrial Revolution" with three frontier deep tech and software founders who build their own physical factories and tech infrastructure from first principles rath…

$2.5 billion
Growth achieved within the first 18 months of Panning Capital.
[00:13:27]
Panning Capital 2013 Return20% NetFund's performance during its exceptionally strong starting year.[00:14:03]
Panning Capital 2014-2016 Returns+1%, -5%, +5/6%The subsequent, volatile years of performance leading to closure.[00:14:24]
Fannie/Freddie Options Delta Shift5-10 to 40The change in risk (delta) as the preferreds rallied from $3 to $13, signaling dangerous mission drift.[00:15:04]
Saba LT Team Size13 peopleThe size of the low-touch electronic corporate bond trading team at Saba.[00:19:56]
Non-Traded BDC Market Growth$0 to $350 billionTotal size of the non-traded BDC market, scaling massively from 2018 to present.[00:22:36]
Interval Fund Liquidity Gate~5%The structural liquidity that interval funds must provide quarterly.[00:24:11]
Discrepancy in Stressed Marks60 vs 85Example of severe marking discrepancies for the same stressed secondary lien SaaS loan across different BDCs.[00:26:52]
Compounded NAV Variance4% to 6%The estimated overall portfolio NAV difference between the most accurate and least accurate marking managers.[00:27:52]
Q4 Dividend Cuts10%The amount Blackstone, Golub, and Oaktree had to cut dividends on non-traded BDCs.[00:29:42]
SOFR Decline175 basis pointsThe drop in the Secured Overnight Financing Rate affecting floating rate yields.[00:29:42]
Gross Yield Compression300 basis pointsThe total drop in realistic gross yield for BDCs since 2022/2023.[00:29:42]
Top 6 BDC Redemptions2.1% to 4.3%The jump in redemption requests across the top six non-traded BDCs following dividend cuts.[00:30:05]
SaaS Gross Margins80%The historical gross margins in software that Goodwin warns may compress in an AI-disrupted world.[00:32:30]
Interval Fund Market Size$100 billionEstimated total assets held within the interval fund structure.[00:38:18]
Fire-Sale Bid LevelsLow 90sThe expected clearing bid price for premium private credit loans during a liquidity crunch.[00:41:16]
Private Credit Yield Profile~11%Projected yield for distressed buyers (assuming an 8-9% base rate with a 5-year duration bought at 90 cents).[00:41:16]
Default Rate Discrepancy7-8% vs 15-20%The expected gap between default rates in average portfolios vs. bottom-quartile manager portfolios in a stress scenario.[00:41:59]